Pitcher List’s 2018 American League All-Star Votes

Check out the Pitcher List Staff's All-Star Selections!

The staff was discussing last week how All-Star Voting is effectively a popularity contest; if a player’s team has a lot of fans or very passionate fans, he could end up starting the All-Star game over someone more qualified. So we decided to vote for the game ourselves. Who are the most deserving players for the All-Star game? Effectively, if statistics ruled the day and the best players started, who would they be? Here are the staff picks

CATCHER

Wilson Ramos (Tampa Bay Rays)- 7 votes

Gary Sanchez (New York Yankees)- 4 votes

Yan Gomes (Cleveland Indians)- 1 vote

Max Stassi (Houston Astros)- 1 vote

Salvador Perez (Kansas City Royals)- 1 vote

FIRST BASE

Jose Abreu (Chicago White Sox)- 10 votes

Matt Olson (Oakland Athletics)- 2 votes

Mitch Moreland (Boston Red Sox)- 2 votes

SECOND BASE

Jose Altuve (Houston Astros)- 11 votes

Gleyber Torres (New York Yankees)- 3 votes

THIRD BASE

Jose Ramirez (Cleveland Indians)- 14 votes

SHORTSTOP

Manny Machado (Baltimore Orioles)- 6 votes

Francisco Lindor (Cleveland Indians)- 4 votes

Andrelton Simmons (Los Angeles Angels)- 3 votes

Jean Segura (Seattle Mariners)- 1 vote

OUTFIELD (3)

Mike Trout (Los Angeles Angels)- 14 votes

Mookie Betts (Boston Red Sox)- 14 votes

Andrew Benintendi (Boston Red Sox)- 7 votes

Aaron Judge (New York Yankees)- 5 votes

Eddie Rosario (Minnesota Twins)- 1 vote

Nicholas Castellanos (Detroit Tigers)- 1 vote

DESIGNATED HITTER

J.D. Martinez (Boston Red Sox)- 14 votes

STARTING PITCHER (5)

Chris Sale (Boston Red Sox)- 14 votes

Luis Severino (New York Yankees)- 14 votes

Justin Verlander (Houston Astros)- 14 votes

Corey Kluber (Cleveland Indians)- 11 votes

Gerrit Cole (Houston Astros)- 8 votes

Trevor Bauer (Cleveland Indians)- 7 votes

James Paxton (Seattle Mariners)- 2 votes

RELIEF PITCHER (5)

Aroldis Chapman (New York Yankees)- 14 votes

Edwin Diaz (Seattle Mariners)- 14 votes

Blake Treinen (Oakland Athletics)- 13 votes

Craig Kimbrel (Boston Red Sox)- 9 votes

Joe Jimenez (Detroit Tigers)- 6 votes

Chad Green (New York Yankees)- 6 votes

Hector Rondon (Houston Astros)- 5 votes

Dellin Betances (New York Yankees)- 3 votes

You can see the full voting below:

Nick Pollack Ben Palmer Dave Cherman Andy Patton Michael Augustine Adam Garland Alex Fast
C Gary Sanchez Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos Gary Sanchez Salvador Perez"}”>Salvador Perez Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos
1B Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Matt Olson"}”>Matt Olson Matt Olson"}”>Matt Olson Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Jose Abreu
2B Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Gleyber Torres"}”>Gleyber Torres Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve
SS Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Francisco Lindor"}”>Francisco Lindor Jean Segura"}”>Jean Segura Andrelton Simmons"}”>Andrelton Simmons Francisco Lindor"}”>Francisco Lindor Andrelton Simmons"}”>Andrelton Simmons
3B Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez
OF Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout
OF Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts
OF Aaron Judge"}”>Aaron Judge Eddie Rosario"}”>Eddie Rosario Aaron Judge"}”>Aaron Judge Nicholas Castellanos Andrew Benintendi"}”>Andrew Benintendi Andrew Benintendi"}”>Andrew Benintendi Andrew Benintendi"}”>Andrew Benintendi
DH J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez
SP Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale
SP Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Justin Verlander"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino
SP Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Luis Severino"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander
SP Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber
SP Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer James Paxton"}”>James Paxton James Paxton"}”>James Paxton Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer
RP Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz
RP Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman
RP Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Chad Green"}”>Chad Green Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Chad Green"}”>Chad Green
RP Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Jose Jimenez Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen
RP Hector Rondon Chad Green"}”>Chad Green Joe Jimenez Joe Jimenez Hector Rondon Hector Rondon Joe Jimenez

 

Austin Perodeau Rick Graham Austin Bristow II Jonathan Metzelaar Jeff Davis Grayson Blazek Andrew Gould
C Max Stassi "}”>Max Stassi Gary Sanchez Yan Gomes"}”>Yan Gomes Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos Gary Sanchez Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos Wilson Ramos"}”>Wilson Ramos
1B Mitch Moreland"}”>Mitch Moreland Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Jose Abreu Mitch Moreland"}”>Mitch Moreland
2B Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Jose Altuve "}”>Jose Altuve Gleyber Torres"}”>Gleyber Torres Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve Gleyber Torres"}”>Gleyber Torres Jose Altuve"}”>Jose Altuve
SS Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Francisco Lindor"}”>Francisco Lindor Andrelton Simmons "}”>Andrelton Simmons Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Manny Machado"}”>Manny Machado Francisco Lindor"}”>Francisco Lindor
3B Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez Jose Ramirez
OF Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout "}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout Mike Trout"}”>Mike Trout
OF Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts Mookie Betts"}”>Mookie Betts
OF Andrew Benintendi "}”>Andrew Benintendi Andrew Benintendi"}”>Andrew Benintendi Andrew Benintendi "}”>Andrew Benintendi Andrew Benintendi"}”>Andrew Benintendi Aaron Judge"}”>Aaron Judge Aaron Judge"}”>Aaron Judge Aaron Judge"}”>Aaron Judge
DH J.D Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez "}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez JD Martinez J.D. Martinez"}”>J.D. Martinez
SP Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale Chris Sale"}”>Chris Sale
SP Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino "}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino Luis Severino"}”>Luis Severino
SP Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander "}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander Justin Verlander"}”>Justin Verlander
SP Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber Corey Kluber"}”>Corey Kluber
SP Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Gerrit Cole"}”>Gerrit Cole Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer Trevor Bauer"}”>Trevor Bauer
RP Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz Edwin Diaz"}”>Edwin Diaz
RP Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman Aroldis Chapman"}”>Aroldis Chapman
RP Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Chad Green"}”>Chad Green Chad Green"}”>Chad Green Chad Green"}”>Chad Green Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel
RP Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen Craig Kimbrel"}”>Craig Kimbrel Blake Treinen"}”>Blake Treinen
RP Dellin Betances"}”>Dellin Betances Joe Jimenez Dellin Betances "}”>Dellin Betances Dellin Betances"}”>Dellin Betances Joe Jimenez Hector Rondon Hector Rondon

You’ll notice a few players received only one vote, others were unanimous. Let’s hear from some of the staff about their picks.

Max Stassi– Max Stassi on a per plate appearance basis is the best catcher in the American league so far this season. He currently leads all AL catchers in wRC+, SLG%, ISO, and wOBA. He is also 3rd in OBP, and neck-and-neck in fWAR with the likes of Gary Sanchez despite 120 fewer plate appearances. Stassi may not get the votes from my fellow writers because of the lack of at-bats, but he deserves recognition for how he has produced when in the Astros lineup”- Austin Perodeau

There’s some debate on who the American League shortstop should be. Here’s the staff defending each choice:

Manny Machado– “My dude Machado is top-five among ALL shortstops in AVG (4th), OPS (1st), wRC+ (1st), and ISO (2nd). He leads all shortstops with 19 homers. He’s already accumulated more fWAR this year (2.7) than he had all of last year (2.5). And from a sentimental perspective, it’d be great to see him play his last All-Star game in an Orioles uniform so close to the Baltimore fans.”- Jonathan Metzelaar

Francisco Lindor– “Simmons’ calling card is his defense. But he hasn’t been all that much better defensively than Lindor. Lindor has 10 DRS to Simmons’ 8. Simmons leads in UZR 6.5 to 5.9, and they’re tied in dWAR at 1.4. Meanwhile, Machado is last among qualified SS’s in DRS (-16), UZR/150 (-14.6), and Defensive Rating (-2.9). Yikes. Regardless of what Machado has done with the bat, that’s unspeakably bad defense and I can’t reward it with an All-Star game nod. Lindor is 2nd among AL SS’s in OPS and wOBA, 1st in both bWAR and fWAR (4th among all position players in baseball in both), 1st in R+RBI, 3rd in SLG%, 3rd in ISO, and 2nd in Hard Hit%. The only AL SS’s better than him in any of those stats are Machado and Eduardo Escobar, who is probably the second worst defensive SS in the game. As far as Segura goes, he’s having a great season, but there’s not one thing besides batting average that he’s doing better than Lindor- and Lindor even beats him in OBP”- Dave Cherman

Andrelton Simmons– “Andrelton Simmons’s All-Star Game resumé begins with his defense, where he had been acknowledged as the most valuable defensive player in all of baseball for the past few years. As fantasy baseball analysts, we often don’t regard defensive prowess as highly as we ought to; it is half the game after all. This year, in particular, Simmons has stood out with his bat as well. In a year when strikeouts are more common than hits, Simba has only been sat down on strikes 11 times in 238 at-bats. His 4.1 K% is phenomenal when compared to the 22.4% league average rate. Elite defense paired with elite contact skills is an all-star in my book, and Simmons has my vote.”- Austin Bristow II

Jean Segura– “Sure the .372 BABIP is a little misleading, but it’s hard to ignore Segura’s .334 batting average, good for third in all of baseball. Lindor, Machado, and Segura all deserve to be All-Stars, but Segura has been the life-blood of this jumpstart Mariners team. He is striking out at just a 14.2% clip, and his 14 steals are second only to Tim Anderson among AL shortstops. He’s also playing some of the best defense of his career. Segura has done enough to earn a vote from me, even amongst a stacked group of shortstops in the AL.” – Andy Patton

 

Nicholas Castellanos– “Castellanos continues to remain a sabermetrics darling. He’s sporting a staggering 48.3% hard-hit rate, sixth in all of baseball. His 28.5% line drive rate leads the American League and puts him fifth in all of baseball. Although his nine home runs on the year is a bit disappointing, xHR has him pegged for 12 on the year. I have no doubt a power surge is coming for the right fielder, which should place him firmly among the elite class of American League outfielders. Castellanos is a bona fide star on the offensive side of the ball. His defense leaves, a lot, I mean a lot, to be desired, but he deserves to make his first All-Star game as the undisputed leader of this somewhat surprising Tigers squad.” – Andy Patton

We also had a near tie for the last pitcher spot. Here are two staff veterans sharing the rationale behind their choices:

Trevor Bauer– “I had a tough time deciding between Gerrit Cole and Trevor Bauer, and in the end in came down to consistency. Bauer’s 2.44 ERA is actually elevated over his 2.25 FIP due to a .302 BABIP and 75.0% LOB rate, numbers that display how he’s deserved the constant success through the year and isn’t a product of an incredible eight start run. Meanwhile, Cole’s fantastic 2.58 ERA is on the back on his brilliant opening to 2018, while still forunate with a .237 BABIP and 84% LOB mark. There is a big separation in HRs allowed – Bauer’s 5.4% HR/FB and Cole’s 13.1% HR/FB create their distinctions – though I’d argue for All-Star voting, showcasing HR suppression should be rewarded. Both are stud pitchers and there is no wrong answer here, and Cole’s recent downward trend with Bauer continued high performance makes me more inclined to reward him with a vote.”- Nick Pollack

Gerrit Cole– “Cole and Bauer are extremely close, and if you wanted to argue Bauer over Cole, I’d have a hard time telling you you’re totally wrong, but I ended up going with Cole simply because he’s just been a little bit better this year. The ERAs are comparable (Bauer at 2.44 and Cole at 2.59), but Cole has the better K/9 at a gaudy 12.34, and a killer WHIP at 0.89—also better than Bauer’s. Still, like I said, the two are absurdly close for me.”- Ben Palmer

Who do you agree with? Who do you not agree with? We’d love to hear your thoughts.

Dave Cherman

Across the Seams Manager, also a former player and umpire and New York-based lawyer who spends his free time studying advanced statistics and obsessing over fantasy trades. Will debate with you about most anything.

55 responses to “Pitcher List’s 2018 American League All-Star Votes”

  1. Joey says:

    lol Almost all of you failed in your mission to choose the most statistically deserving players.

  2. Joey says:

    Honestly I stopped reading when I saw Abreu at 1B mostly. It’s not close between him and the two 1B who are better (Moreland then Olson).

    • Dave Cherman says:

      I agree about Abreu. I told all the writers who voted for him to get in here and defend their choices. Anyone else you feel strongly about?

    • Myles Nelson says:

      Disclaimer: I didn’t vote here. But I agree with Abreu over Moreland. So I agree that Moreland has had a better season statistically thus far, there’s really no arguing that. Better average, better OPS, similar R/HR/RBI production. However, he’s not that far ahead of Abreu in production, and it’s close enough for me that I would rather vote for the guy that has the track record. I don’t want to look back in ten years and say “how on Earth was that guy an All Star Starter?” a la Joc Pederson, who became a head-scratching decision by the end of that same season.

      If it’s not close, then there’s no argument. I have absolutely no problem with the fact that Nick Markakis is going to be an All Star this year, because his production is outpacing his competition in a way that I don’t really feel compelled to even go to a track record tie-breaker for guys like Bryce Harper or Christian Yelich.

      • Joey says:

        Moreland is, statistically speaking, in a whole different class than Abreu this season. And it isn’t close. wOBA, wRC+, and WAR all suggest Moreland is far and away the better player.
        Olson as well.

        The all-star game IS a popularity contest. And that’s fine. But for a statistical exercise such as this the players with objectively superior numbers should win out every time.

        • theKraken says:

          This isn’t objective. All of the metrics which you are pointing at lack context. Hitting in BOS isn’t the same as hitting in CHW. Playing everyday isn’t sitting out v same-handed pitching… the numbers are cold, lifeless and objective, but the underlying realities are not. I don’t think counting up the stats and running them through an algorithm adds up to any objective truths. Does one 2 HR game in Coors really make you a better player that a guy that just had to visit CLE? Personally, I will take the guy that goes 1/3 five days in a row as the three hitter over the guy that has 4 0’fers and a single 5 hit game in a favorable match-up where his team scores 20 runs v the other team’s bullpen and the spot starter who just got optioned back to Pawtucket.

          • Joey says:

            This exercise is a statistical one. So yes, the numbers should lead to objective truths.
            Additionally, wRC+ does factor in different hitting environments and neutralizes them.
            Lastly, Moreland has been a regular for the majority of the year, only early on did he lose PT to Hanley. So the bit about playing time is irrelevant. Also, none of what you said applies to Olson.

            I won’t even attempt to address your final point as it doesn’t make an sense or seem to relate to anything here.

            • Dave Cherman says:

              His last point is that Moreland is hitting in the elite Red Sox lineup vs Abreu hitting in a non-existent White Sox lineup. When Moreland’s Sox drive a starter out of the game early, they’re facing bullpen guys the rest of the way, which doesn’t happen often for Abreu. Correct me if I’m wrong, Kraken.

            • theKraken says:

              You don’t get it.. that’s OK. Don’t feel obligated to reply!

        • Devin says:

          Moreland has 100 less at bats meaning his numbers could easily be better or worse and in most cases with Moreland it would be worse. Olsen has 30pts lower average and basically the same stats other wise. So how do you see them as significantly better options than Abreu.

          • Dave Cherman says:

            Defense is likely the distinguishing factor- Abreu is painfully bad on defense. That’s why he’s 3rd in the AL in WAR among 1B.

      • theKraken says:

        Ironically Joc definitely deserved it if you are referring to his rookie year. He was Judge before Judge for about 60 games.

    • Michael Augustine says:

      Moreland has played less than the other two (>=50 less PA) and doesn’t make the qualified hitter list for first basemen on FG, so I ignored him.
      I will freely admit I dropped the ball on Olsen.
      However, Abreu is mired in a terrible slump which has caused him to fall down the leaderboards. He’s definitely not as bad as he’s been playing the last few weeks and is a terrible fielder, which kills his fWAR.

    • theKraken says:

      Abreu has been slumping the past few weeks. Does that really carry that much weight? He was having a great year up until a few weeks ago with absolutely nobody around him.

  3. Abishai says:

    The three Torres > Altuve voters are silly persons.

    • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

      I’m a silly person, but I don’t think it’s because I chose Torres over Altuve. Torres has a .375 wOBA and 140 wRC+. Altuve has a .385 wOBA and 151 wRC+. But Altuve has played in a whopping 25 more games than Torres. I’m willing to give Torres the edge here because I think he’s done more with fewer at-bats.

      • Abishai says:

        Not trying to be harsh, but this article is billed as “as if statistics ruled the day”, and you are completely omitting speed and defense, both of which are heavily in Altuve’s favor. Altuve has also had fewer days off than Torres.

        • Dave Cherman says:

          The value of stolen bases is not as high as one would typically think. That’s why you have to steal at above a 75% rate for it to even be worth it, so I do think omitting speed is not a huge issue. Gleyber also beats Altuve in DRS 2 to 0, despite trailing in other defensive categories. I agree it should be Altuve, but the Torres vote is not as indefensible as you claim.

        • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

          Torres has more DRS than Altuve, and both are below-average defenders based on their UZR. Altuve obviously has more value on the bases, but Torres has twice as many homers in 25 fewer games. And how many days off a player has taken doesn’t factor into how I evaluate guys.

          • Abishai says:

            Commented in the wrong thread. Here it is again:

            I’m not referring to steals, I’m referring to speed/baserunning. Altuve is a 2.9 BsR while Torres is -1.3.

            As for defense, c’mon man you are cherry picking. UZR/150 has Torres LAST in baseball by a lot. Even though Altuve is 2nd worst, the gap is enormous (over 20).

            Overall, the missing 25 games doesn’t come close to the over 2 fWAR gap between Torres and Altuve. Give Torres those 25 games with the same level of production and he’s still not close. Laying this all out it only seems more indefensible, and I love Torres.

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              Sure, I wasn’t referring to steals either, and I conceded that Altuve has more value as a baserunner.

              In terms of defense, defensive metrics are far from perfect, and even if we rely purely on them we’re essentially arguing over who’s less bad. If Altuve was an above-average defender I think you’d have a point, but neither of them is good. You can say I’m cherry-picking by ignoring UZR/150, but that statistic has a projection factored in, which I don’t think is totally fair when evaluating a player’s true talent, especially a rookie like Torres. I can’t give Altuve the defensive edge when he’s been terrible too.

              As for the missing 25 games, you can’t say what would happen if he had that additional playing time. Maybe he’d go 0-for-100, or maybe he’d hit .350 with another six homers. My argument is that it’s already close between the two of them without those missing games factored in, close enough that I’m willing to give Torres the edge because he’s put up similar production with less playing time.

            • theKraken says:

              That metric is assuredly bad. I have never heard anyone in the know refer to base-running stats as good – it is always a crude proxy. Just my plea to not use it for anything. I am sure it doesn’t measure base-running ability. Just to back that up a tiny bit – if a guy is aggressive that is going to look like bad base-running but it probably isn’t. Is getting sent by your third base coach because you have some speed and aptitude really a bad trait? It would certainly look like running into an out to a machine.

          • Abishai says:

            c’mon Johnathan, you’re cherry picking. There’s zero reason to focus on HR’s so much. This isn’t fantasy all stars.

          • Abishai says:

            But they are not close, that’s been the point from the beginning. There is no statistical argument that shows Torres is close to Altuve, and when prompted to make that argument, you didn’t. You have done nothing to show that they are close. The stats say they are not.

            (other than pointing out Torres’ HR’s in half the games, which was egregious cherry picking because Altuve beats him in everything *except* HR’s).

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              Torres: .375 wOBA and 140 wRC+

              Altuve: .385 wOBA and 151 wRC+

              That’s close enough for me to say 25 games of above-average production could swing it in Torres’ favor.

            • Abishai says:

              Besides that, your premise is flawed. If Torres had “above average production” (over those 25 missing games, his wRC+ would go DOWN. 140 is way way above average. So he’d have to keep up his pace, not simply be above average.

              On top of that, I brought up missed games because Torres would not have played all 25 of them. Altuve is an iron man, Torres is not. That counts too.

            • Abishai says:

              You JUST made the argument that we can’t predict what will happen in those 25 games. But now it’s somehow in his favor? Nah. You’re going in circles here man, no disrespect intended.

              Besides, 11 points of wRC+ is significant. Add in speed and defense, and this isn’t close.

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              No disrespect taken, I think we just disagree here, which is fine. I’m not saying Torres would definitely outperform Altuve with those extra games, but I believe that he would, which is why I voted for him over Altuve. I don’t give a ton of weight to the defensive gap, because neither player has shown themselves to be great at the position this year, and while I give Altuve the baserunning edge, it’s not enough to overcome what I feel is the more impressive offensive first half from Torres.

            • Abishai says:

              Well yeah, we definitely disagree, but you haven’t made a strong case here at all. Even if you assume Torres can keep this up (which you admitted is improper to do) and we credit him with 25 quality games along the same pace, he’s still well short in WAR.

              I also think it’s a bad look to declare that you “feel” Torres’s stats are “more impressive”. That take has no place when we’re doing this based on stats.

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              Again, you’re making a prediction about how those 25 games would turn out and stating it as objective fact. It’s fine if you think those 25 games wouldn’t make a difference, the same way I think those 25 games would, but there’s no way of knowing. I think that’s the crux of our disagreement here.

              Full disclosure (though it’s probably plainly obvious at this point), I didn’t make my picks based solely on the stats. I was just asked to make All-Star Game selections. If I was basing my picks solely on the stats, I’d have just sorted the WAR leaderboards and plugged in the top results, but then we’d be in lock-step and wouldn’t get to have little debates like this :)

            • Abishai says:

              I am literally making no predictions about those 25 games. I am suggesting you are, and I explained why. You keep missing that point, not me.

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              “Even if you assume Torres can keep this up (which you admitted is improper to do) and we credit him with 25 quality games along the same pace, he’s still well short in WAR.”

              You’re saying he’d fall short in WAR even if he had 25 “quality” games. What are you basing that on?

            • Abishai says:

              That was in response to you saying this (after quoting their wRC+ and wOBA):

              you: “That’s close enough for me to say 25 games of above-average production could swing it in Torres’ favor.”

              The assumption about those 25 games has been yours since we started chatting. I was following your premise.

              You told me I couldn’t assume what happened in those 25 games in response to *you assuming what would happen in those 25 games*.

              You see why I said you are talking in circles? You directly contradicted yourself.

            • Jonathan Metzelaar says:

              I think you’re confusing two separate point I was trying to make. One is, the fact that Torres played 25 fewer games than Altuve absolutely should be taken into consideration when comparing them. The other is, there’s no way of definitively knowing what Torres would have done if he had played an extra 25 games. I’m absolutely making an assumption of what he might have done if he had the same number of at-bats as Altuve. I never claimed I wasn’t, and it’s really the only way I can justify having Torres over Altuve. I don’t have a stat to back it up, because it’s purely hypothetical. But I still absolutely think that games played should be taken into account here, and that’s just not something that the statistics can easily quantify.

            • Abishai says:

              No, that’s not where my confusion lies.

              Let’s back up either way: your premise rests on an assumption of what Torres would do with those 25 games. Without that assumption, (which is a big assumption because he’s a rookie whom the league has not adjusted to yet), you admit the numbers aren’t all that close.

              A 151 wRC+ is significantly higher than a 140 when the games are equal.

              but a 151 wRC+ over ~75 games is even more significantly higher than a 140 over ~50 games.

              So you are making a very large assumption about those 25 games, which is that Torres would pass Altuve in WAR (or otherwise) in that span.

              The math is simple here, (though I don’t know what the stats on the 15th were): Gleyber Torres has a fWAR of 1.3. Altuve has a 3.6.

              Suggesting that Gleyber could close that gap with 25 games is, frankly, absurd!

      • Joey says:

        This doesn’t make sense. Torres has done less with less…

    • Adam Garland says:

      I was one of those “silly persons” that voted Torres over Altuve and I did because at the time that I voted (June 15th), it was actually Torres who was leading all AL 2B in multiple important metrics including wOBA and wRC+ among others. Torres was also very comparable in terms of DRS and UZR and so I valued the better batting metrics over steals when comparing the two for AL 2B All-star. Altuve has since gotten hot, raising his batting line from .337/.387/.462 on June 15th to .343/.402/.491 today compared to Torres who was hitting .294/.349/.569 on June 15th and is now hitting .285/.344/.544. It’s the difference of a hot streak and a bit of a slump.

      • Abishai says:

        Thanks, Adam. Now *that* is a very reasonable argument.

        However, there’s nothing in this article that indicates that the votes were taken on the 15th. The quotes at the top of the article refer to current stats, not stats from June 15th. EG Johnathan refers to Machado’s 19 HR’s. He hit #19 on Friday. Nick Pollack refers to Bauer’s current ERA, which is superior to his ERA on the 15th etc etc.

      • Abishai says:

        Following up here Adam, a few things:

        1) Torres comparable to Altuve at DRS/UZR on the 15th… are you sure? Torres is *very* far behind Altuve now. It’s possible that the gap widened largely in 11 days, but that is hard to believe.

        2) Hot streaks aside, Altuve was/is far ahead of Torres in WAR. When WAR is close it’s fair to look elsewhere but the gap is/was pretty huge here.

        3) wOBA and wRC+ don’t count PA’s. So even with Torres being favorable on the 15th, he did so with less weight behind it.

  4. Abishai says:

    The fact that no one picked JT Realmuto at C despite him blowing out ALL other catchers in fWAR by a full win is a huge whiff. The Gary Sanchez picks are indefensible. What is the argument for him over… Realmuto, Ramos, Posey or even Contreras? Sanchez is not even in the top 4.

    • Dave Cherman says:

      JT Realmuto, Buster Posey, and Willson Contreras are all in the NL. These are AL All-Stars. Check out the NL voting article from yesterday where Realmuto won the vote. So really the argument here is Sanchez vs Ramos. As someone who voted for Sanchez, I voted for him because Ramos is a bad pitch framer; he regularly costs his teams runs in a way that Sanchez does not. This is further evidenced by the fact that, despite trailing in a number of offensive categories, Sanchez STILL leads Ramos in WAR. Seeing as catcher is perhaps the most important defensive position on the field, I weigh catcher defensive heavily and that’s enough for me to vote Sanchez over Ramos.

      • Abishai says:

        haha derp, my bad. Sorry ’bout that. I retract my point. That’s a totally fair argument re: Sanchez.

    • Abishai says:

      I’m not referring to steals, I’m referring to speed/baserunning. Altuve is a 2.9 BsR while Torres is -1.3.

      As for defense, c’mon man you are cherry picking. UZR/150 has Torres LAST in baseball by a lot. Even though Altuve is 2nd worst, the gap is enormous (over 20).

      Overall, the missing 25 games doesn’t come close to the over 2 fWAR gap between Torres and Altuve. Give Torres those 25 games with the same level of production and he’s still not close. Laying this all out it only seems more indefensible, and I love Torres.

  5. theKraken says:

    I don’t think anyone should take those defensive metrics nearly as seriously as people do. You can’t measure defense accurately – you never will be able to either as every ball and situation is unique. It is problematic enough to compare an AB v Giolito with Barry Bonds hitting behind you to whatever Freddie Freeman has to deal with v Scherzer, but at least it kind of averages out and is reasonably measurable in a several ways. I think defensive metrics areis fine to separate players into tiers and sometimes an outlier floats to the top or the bottom , but it is way too crude and misguided to tell you the difference between Lindor and Andrelton. I think you can probably conclude that both are better than Manny at SS, but you don’t need Statcast to tell you that!

    • Dave Cherman says:

      I was effectively putting them into tiers by acknowledging the relative differences between the two but saying how close they are means they’re roughly in the same tier defensively. Sorry if that wasn’t particularly clear. 1 or 2 DRS doesn’t mean someone is a better fielder for sure, and I mainly included them to signify these two are in one class and Manny is in a frighteningly bad class defensively.

      • theKraken says:

        No worries. I was more looking at the comments and general discussion. I guess you could say that I am often trying to engage the community more than criticize the author. Thanks for the reply!

  6. Steve says:

    Kluber not being a unanimous selection just seems wrong despite the super strong AL performances this year. Hard to argue against Sevvy, JV, Cole, Bauer though for those selecting them over Kluber.

    • Dave Cherman says:

      And Sale, don’t forget Sale. I can’t blame anyone for voting Sale, Sevy, JV, Cole, and Bauer. But maybe one of those writers want to jump in and defend not picking Kluber.

      • Steve says:

        I left Sale off since I considered him an automatic and beyond reproach lol.

      • Andy says:

        It’s basically what you said Cherm. I picked the five that you listed – I know considerably more than six SP will make the All-Star game, likely including those five and Kluber (and Paxton). I just picked those five because I love the seasons they are having. Was not meant to exclude Kluber

  7. gemit says:

    This year it could be 9 starting pitchers 3 relievers or 8 starters and 4 relievers.

    I’d take the 7 starters you listed and add Blake Snell. Too good to leave off. Would have Treinen, Chapman, & Diaz as relievers. Last pitcher either JA Happ or Kimbrel & I’d go with the latter for WHIP & fear factor.

    I’m a Yankee fan but would not take Betances or Green. Delin has just been too erratic. Even now after 3 weeks of incredible results, still does not instill confidence. Chad Green not same pitcher as last year when strikeouts came by blowing it by everyone. This year he’s gotten good results but is hittable and has had to gut out innings a lot more than last year. Actually best reliever on Yanks might just be Holder (.68 WHIP).

    Astro reliever? Wouldn’t it be Devenski over Rondon? And Jose or Joe Jiminez didn’t even make it on to my radar… tho’ if Castellanos doesn’t go maybe Detroit needs him.

    • Dave Cherman says:

      Snell absolutely deserves to make it; it’s crazy that he hasn’t even been a top 5 AL pitcher this year given his stats. I think the staff went Rondon over Devenski due to a lower FIP and SIERA, higher GB%, and lower HR/9 given the comparable ERAs.

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